1947t9

International T4 and T5 orchard tractor

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1947t9    0

I'm looking for info on these small dozers. I bought 2 of them recently. Going to try to make one little dozer out of the 2. Both are red but the id plate is missing on the one that I think is a T5. It has headlights in the grille, the t4 has no grille or radiator. I'm kind of torn right now which one to save, but the more I think about it I like the T5 orchard tractor and switch over the blade if it fits with the wider tracks.  The tracks don't look bad to me but how is the best way to tell. They both are 48 gauge, but the t5 are wider at 14". The t4 has the blade and there is less adjustment left in the tracks. I've got some pictures and I can get more when the battery charges, I haven't cleaned them yet at all. I went to an estate auction to get a cement mixer and this happened. My opening bid held on the T5, so I had to get the other one too. Thanks for any info and your thoughts.

PS. If the ID plate is missing are the serial numbers stamped on the frame somewhere?

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mmi    0

hi

 

you will have to wait on canadian members for more info

UC/chains look to about 10% + - will run a while for orchard or playing   once they are too thin or worn pins they simply break

and cause wear on other parts but they are not going to /have not done much heavy work

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1947t9    0

I don't understand the % figure, If there is 10% left, then is something worn 90%? If I look at track adjustment the crawler without the radiator has 1.5 inches from the end of the adjustment rail. The crawler in the back has 2.75 from the same place. It would seem that the crawler with the most adjustment would be less used and the% would be different.

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t4mike    0

very good finds,

what makes u think u have a orchard/low profile machine?  just because the h-lights are in the grill don't make it l-profile.  show me the tops of the hoods and grille shell.  neither seats are l-profile.  engine block stampings showing cubic inches will tell u the difference between 4 & 5, this will be true only if the engine block is original to chassis.  serial number is not stamped anywhere on the machine other than the tag.   keep both… parts are very hard to find.  don't put blade on these because they got weak finals and designed as drawbar machines.  don't worry about track %, its rare to find track, just use/show it.  build the 1 that has the tag,  tags are often missing on these because stuff dropping down from the battery tray above eats the away. good luck.

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chip man    0

Gordon76, unfortunately that theory is incorrect. There were 5 roller T4's, and 4 roller T5's. as Mike said, the engine size was the only difference. T4 - 123 ci, T5 - 135 ci.

If it were me, I would try to save both

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Kevingweq    0

Congratulations ,  Them is some fine looking machines !!  3 point hitches and PTO's wow ! 

What are your plans for em ?

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1947t9    0

The 2 tractors look different and I found a picture of a T-5 orchard tractor online that looked very similar. That and an original manual came with the tractors. The manual was original to the tractor with the ID plate. On that page was penciled in at the top of the page a T5 serial # and an engine #, so I reasoned that could be the other tractor. My reasoning is wrong because I found the engine serial # and it doesn't match what is written down.  Both engine serial numbers are very close on the tractors, but I could not find any prefix that says c123 or c135. I'll post some more pictures tomorrow of the hood and front of both.

Thanks 

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t4mike    0

123 ci,135 ci data is located on a raised boss on the right side of the engine block at the head.  i believe slightly forward of center.  doug is right save both, i should have said do the 1 with tag 1st.  maybe let the other 1 go for operating capital $$.  3 point was a option and uncommon on those crawlers.  u also have a 1000 rpm to 540 reduction pto gearbox which was a very uncommon option. those machines look very good original and rarely found in that condition.  mine was beat to **** but ran good…. wouldn't steer and many broken castings,bolts etc.  it had the s/n tag and was 38" gauge = 48" total wide.  heres mine and waynes 60" gauge orchard/low profile at a red power many years back.  note nothing coming thru the hood.  i have complete radiator needing recore but the mounting brackets, top and bottom tanks are very good shape. good luck with ur project. 

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1947t9    0

Here are some more pictures of both tractors. I'll go look for that engine data again.

I wouldn't mind getting both tractors running, but where to find the radiator, sheet metal, starter etc. for the one with the blade? What other tractors shared parts? The 3 point arms, draw bar etc I would like to find.

As far as my plans... they are evolving! When I originally saw these and won the bid on the 1st one, I thought I'd better get the 2nd for parts. I recently acquired some real estate that has a some skid roads to access the higher elevation bench on the property. They are too steep for an ATV and I thought one of these would give me  the ability to get up there.

Did these tractors have an electric fuel pump? The spot it was likely located is empty on both and it doesn't look like gravity feed to the carb would be good when the tank gets low.

I did get a few parts... steering clutches, (need the disks) and a set of sprockets for the chain. I did pick up some other parts that were painted red, but I don't know what they are. There were other IH tractors there too, a 140, a cub, a 3200a skid loader. There was a small JD 40 something  crawler that ran there too. These 2 were enough at least that was what I thought at the time.

Thanks, I appreciate the info. 

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1947t9    0

I forgot to add that the tracks are 12 and 14 inches wide with the 12in tracks on the tractor with the blade. Sometimes it's hard to tell this from a picture, anyway they are different.

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t4mike    0

the 1 without blade almost looks like a orchard hood with the rad cap and gas cap shields.  but why the exhaust and air cleaner intake coming up thru the hood????  maybe some one cut them in.  does the cut outs look professional die cut ? or hack cut?  the shields for the caps look professional welded or hack welded?  is this the machine with the tag?  the tag i think might be hand stamped "LP".  it does look like the lp grille  but some with blades had that or similar grille.  does it have any evidence of it having a blade?

 

the lp's were pulled out the line and stock parts were removed and lp parts installed as the lp was ordered.  there aren't to many parts involved, manifolds, pre cleaners, hood, steering levers, seat maybe a couple more.

the gas engines used in these are the same as some of the combine power units built for years around the early 60's, very common. parts out there.  u need to get parts book and operator book. also the blue ribbon manuals for the machine.  i hope u got a lp there!

 

maybe doug knows more.  he's the real expert on these.  good luck with ur project.

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chip man    0

It looks like the one without the blade has cast brass steering levers. I was under the impression that only a few of the very early machines had those. Looks like the throttle lever is brass too.

My T-5 has a brass throttle lever and Drott loader control lever. The steering levers are cast steel. My TD-5B has all steel control levers.

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chip man    0

I just noticed that the T-4 steering levers appear to be taller than the hood, the other one they are below the hood. Maybe it is an orchard that has been modified.

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1947t9    0

I don't see any evidence of a blade. The hoods are different, in a number of ways. probably the biggest being the door for the radiator cap. The hood is bubba modified for a battery door, and the holes in the top of the hood aren't perfectly round. The steering levers are shorter, a much different low profile, are non ferris and are stamped Canada with a IH part #. This is the machine without the tag. There is some corrosion where the tag used to be and below it on the frame. I still can't find the engine model # only the serial #.... might need some hand holding. lol  

I'll get a good picture of the steering levers.

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1947t9    0

Here are some better pictures of the levers. Another guy that was at the auction said he was in the tractor business 35 tears and thought it was an orchard model. He bought the 140.

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chip man    0

Hi, this is a pic of the engine serial number of my T-5 showing the numbers cast in the block for the engine size, also a pic of a Low Pro brochure that was posted here years ago, by TD5 (Doug) iirc.

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1947t9    0

Thank you Chip Man! There is a line holder over the top of that area. C-1 was cast into the block and then 23 was stamped next to it. Both tractors are C123 engines. If I understand correctly that would make both T-4's.

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1947t9    0

Being that the engine is stamped like this... did IH use the same block for both engines? Do people sometimes opt to rebuild to the C135 spec if this is possible? Just curious.

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sugarmaker    0

Those are really cute tractors! I would work on both as time permits. Congratulations! Good pictures!

Regards,

 Chris

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chip man    0
2 hours ago, 1947t9 said:

Being that the engine is stamped like this... did IH use the same block for both engines? Do people sometimes opt to rebuild to the C135 spec if this is possible? Just curious.

Not the same block as there would be a different casting number and engine size cast in the block. The rest could be the same, but I can't say for certain. The bore and stroke are different and I don't know if the outside diameter of the sleeves are the same. There were only a small amount of C-135's made compared to the C-123. I would imagine that it would have been hard to find a crank to change a 123 into a 135.

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t4mike    0

i'll look in my parts book about those being l-p part numbers on the steering levers.  that machine seems 2b a mix of l-p and stock

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1947t9    0

Being that LP tractors were likely used in an orchard type environment, soil compaction would also be of high concern. This tractor has the 14" wide tracks that gave it the lightest footprint possible. Were the 14" wide tracks less common on the stock tractors? Were they more common on the LP models?

I once bought a jeep from an fruit grower. It turned out to be a rare CJV35u, which is very much like a CJ3a or M38. He had to get rid of that little jeep because it was bad for soil compaction. Too much pressure on the ground with those skinny tires, even though those jeeps were small and lite.

 

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1947t9    0

  I'm getting closer to attempt a start, but the tractor doesn't have a fuel pump. It came with an electric pump or was switched to one. Does anyone know the pressure the system takes to operate? Do you have any suggestions on what pump to use? Neither machine has a fuel pump.

Thanks

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t4mike    0

for now use a temporary gravity tank. fuel pump used when original tank was only 1/3 full, or when tractor was on steep up /down grades.

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