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Tell me how a water inj. system on a pulling tractor works?


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#11 oneday

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Posted 11 August 2009 - 09:00 PM

let's keep learning...

what happens mechanically when a tractor "runs out of boost" toward the end of the track? you all know when it looks like they're gonna' take it right out the end and "WHOOSH..WHOOSH...WHOOSH" it flutters down and dies.
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#12 ENMIM

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Posted 11 August 2009 - 09:01 PM

So why add water?

In my mind, it would be one way to increase the octane rating of a given fuel, that is to say make it more stable and able to operate (no premature detonation or "pinging") under huge compression ratios or very high boost levels. Then again only contact I have ever had with water injection is with gas motors, not diesel.

I did run into a fella once that claimed that the water turned to steam during ignition and that the resulting steam expands so forcefully it generates power. Seemed shaky to me as I would think anything that displaces fuel and or oxygen you would not want to charge your cylinder with.

So, what is, are, some of the theories behind water injection?

#13 IH1466

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Posted 11 August 2009 - 09:05 PM

let's keep learning...

what happens mechanically when a tractor "runs out of boost" toward the end of the track? you all know when it looks like they're gonna' take it right out the end and "WHOOSH..WHOOSH...WHOOSH" it flutters down and dies.


Not a 100% sure but I think when the engine lugs down at the end of the track it isn't getting rid of the exhaust. The exhaust then starts to turn harder forcing it to snuff out.
75 1466 BS, 73 1466 w/my brother, 67 1256 w/my brother, 75 1568 w/my dad, 93 9230 w/my dad, 95 7220 MFD w/ my dad, 9 shank Glencoe Disk Chisel, 724 JD Finisher, 1770 JD planter w/ my dad, Unverferth 430 gravity box, Unverferth 2750 seed runner, 00 Peterbilt 379 exhd, 09 Timpte Hopper.

Sell Peterson Farms Seed when I am not driving truck, farming, or wrenching.

Collecting 1466 and 5488 serial numbers, any condition, as long as you can read the serial number tag. Still running or salvaged, would like to have the number, tractor location and condition, and an owners name.

Looking for 1466 serial numbers 19118, 19120, and 28191

http://www.petersonfarmsseed.com/

#14 IH1466

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Posted 11 August 2009 - 09:09 PM

So why add water?

In my mind, it would be one way to increase the octane rating of a given fuel, that is to say make it more stable and able to operate (no premature detonation or "pinging") under huge compression ratios or very high boost levels. Then again only contact I have ever had with water injection is with gas motors, not diesel.

I did run into a fella once that claimed that the water turned to steam during ignition and that the resulting steam expands so forcefully it generates power. Seemed shaky to me as I would think anything that displaces fuel and or oxygen you would not want to charge your cylinder with.

So, what is, are, some of the theories behind water injection?


Water is oxygen(H2O). The more water you can get in, the more oxygen your feeding the fire. The reason for water is to be able to set everything else on the edge. You can set your timing hot and your fuel low, add water to keep it cool and hopefully reach your max hp.
75 1466 BS, 73 1466 w/my brother, 67 1256 w/my brother, 75 1568 w/my dad, 93 9230 w/my dad, 95 7220 MFD w/ my dad, 9 shank Glencoe Disk Chisel, 724 JD Finisher, 1770 JD planter w/ my dad, Unverferth 430 gravity box, Unverferth 2750 seed runner, 00 Peterbilt 379 exhd, 09 Timpte Hopper.

Sell Peterson Farms Seed when I am not driving truck, farming, or wrenching.

Collecting 1466 and 5488 serial numbers, any condition, as long as you can read the serial number tag. Still running or salvaged, would like to have the number, tractor location and condition, and an owners name.

Looking for 1466 serial numbers 19118, 19120, and 28191

http://www.petersonfarmsseed.com/

#15 ENMIM

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Posted 11 August 2009 - 09:29 PM

So why add water?

In my mind, it would be one way to increase the octane rating of a given fuel, that is to say make it more stable and able to operate (no premature detonation or "pinging") under huge compression ratios or very high boost levels. Then again only contact I have ever had with water injection is with gas motors, not diesel.

I did run into a fella once that claimed that the water turned to steam during ignition and that the resulting steam expands so forcefully it generates power. Seemed shaky to me as I would think anything that displaces fuel and or oxygen you would not want to charge your cylinder with.

So, what is, are, some of the theories behind water injection?


Water is oxygen(H2O). The more water you can get in, the more oxygen your feeding the fire. The reason for water is to be able to set everything else on the edge. You can set your timing hot and your fuel low, add water to keep it cool and hopefully reach your max hp.


You are not splitting molecules, at least I don't think you are freeing up the oxygen and using it to oxidize your fuel. I think you would need to run an electric current through water in order to split the hydrogen and oxygen. I do not think the oxygen component in a water molecule is avail to oxidize your fuel. Then again I am not a physicist, and maybe it is. If it were me and I was trying to introduce oxygen or and oxidizer I would be leaning more towards nitrous oxide. It seems to work well.

#16 IH1466

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Posted 11 August 2009 - 09:38 PM

Oxidizers are illegal for the most part. Every pull I have ever been to is one fuel.
75 1466 BS, 73 1466 w/my brother, 67 1256 w/my brother, 75 1568 w/my dad, 93 9230 w/my dad, 95 7220 MFD w/ my dad, 9 shank Glencoe Disk Chisel, 724 JD Finisher, 1770 JD planter w/ my dad, Unverferth 430 gravity box, Unverferth 2750 seed runner, 00 Peterbilt 379 exhd, 09 Timpte Hopper.

Sell Peterson Farms Seed when I am not driving truck, farming, or wrenching.

Collecting 1466 and 5488 serial numbers, any condition, as long as you can read the serial number tag. Still running or salvaged, would like to have the number, tractor location and condition, and an owners name.

Looking for 1466 serial numbers 19118, 19120, and 28191

http://www.petersonfarmsseed.com/

#17 clay seia

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Posted 11 August 2009 - 09:57 PM

Water injection and supercharging both came into perfection in WW2 era aircraft, think P-47, Corsair, Me-109... ways to pump more fuel and air into an engine at rarefied altitude and maximum power needs without dragging a ton of extra weight along. Almost the same needs as a pulling tractor. The diesel engines on pulling tractors are decompressed to where they won't start and idle properly until the turbo boost puts them back to where the diesel will ignite itself properly again.

#18 IH1466

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Posted 11 August 2009 - 10:03 PM

The diesel engines on pulling tractors are decompressed to where they won't start and idle properly until the turbo boost puts them back to where the diesel will ignite itself properly again.


A lot of the engines are starting to use the stock compression ratio's. I know the superfarm class is using a higher ratio. Not real sure about the prostocks or the super stock classes.

Water injection will also cool the inake air, compressing more air into the cylinders.
75 1466 BS, 73 1466 w/my brother, 67 1256 w/my brother, 75 1568 w/my dad, 93 9230 w/my dad, 95 7220 MFD w/ my dad, 9 shank Glencoe Disk Chisel, 724 JD Finisher, 1770 JD planter w/ my dad, Unverferth 430 gravity box, Unverferth 2750 seed runner, 00 Peterbilt 379 exhd, 09 Timpte Hopper.

Sell Peterson Farms Seed when I am not driving truck, farming, or wrenching.

Collecting 1466 and 5488 serial numbers, any condition, as long as you can read the serial number tag. Still running or salvaged, would like to have the number, tractor location and condition, and an owners name.

Looking for 1466 serial numbers 19118, 19120, and 28191

http://www.petersonfarmsseed.com/

#19 ENMIM

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Posted 11 August 2009 - 10:11 PM

Oxidizers are illegal for the most part. Every pull I have ever been to is one fuel.


Maybe I am confused, in your earlier post you stated, "Water is oxygen(H2O). The more water you can get in, the more oxygen your feeding the fire." which, if that statement were true would mean that you would be using water as an oxidizer and after reading your current post would be illegal anyways.

I am saying water injection is not used for any type of "adding oxygen" effect. In fact, I propose that just the opposite is happening. The very fact that water does not burn is what lets you run lots of advance and relatively lean mixtures.

Then again I am totally open to the possibility that I am all wet and am way off base here. Also please note, not picking a fight by any means. I just dig on this stuff and totally look forward to hearing other views and maybe learning a thing or two.

#20 Alky IH

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Posted 11 August 2009 - 10:13 PM

ENMIM is right here. Water (2 parts H and 1 part O) is solely used to cool the intake air and final combustion temps. It cannot be effectively split to add oxygen. Nitrous oxide (1 part N, 5 parts O) may be used to do this, but dont get caught doing it (like Danny Dean did). The water added before the intake manifold is traditionally used to cool the incoming air in order to protect the turbos and intercool the intake charge to a manageable level. The nozzles placed in the intake ports are more specifically used to control what the final exhaust temperature is for each cylinder. Some cylinders tend to run hotter than others and the water added at this point is simply used to put the fire out to a point where there might be something resembling a piston inside that cylinder at the end of the run. If the exhaust temperature is not managed, the pistons resemble wax that has been hit by a blowtorch very quickly.

As for the color of the exhaust turning colors... The gray smoke that results while building boost is simply alot of fuel and water that are not burning properly. The gray comes from black smoke that has become cloudy because the water system has overloaded the system and come on too quickly. Once the motor has gotten on top of things and created enough heat, the smoke will return to black as the water is not overwelming the system. Most times the water comes on in stages as the intake pressure increases. Its been better than a dozen years since I had any interest in looking at one.

The absence of coolant water was originally done to remove weight from tractors that were desperate to lose pounds in the light classes. Pretty soon it was noticed that parts lasted longer. Elvin Domann runs an AGCO Pro Stock and is not afraid to admit that while running Allis Chalmers motors, they found this worked much better for them as the cylinder head would not suffer thermal shocks from extreme heat and pressure that resulted in cracked or broken heads while running coolant. Many Pro Stock and Super Farm tractors are trying either dry heads or blocks (or both) in effort to both improve thermal efficiency and improve reliability of components. Cylinder sleeves can be made thicker and will remain more dimensionally stable under extreme heat and pressure due to having the iron of the sleeve where water used to be. Dry cylinder heads also retain more of the heat created by combustion and use it to start the thermal combustion cycle on the following power stroke. This is also an advantage as this heat energy is not used to heat water which takes more energy to heat than the cast iron of the engine components.

Engines that lug down at the end of a pull may be suffering from a tuning or design fault. If for instance, the turbocharger system creates 200psi in the intake manifold, at full wind, the exhaust pressure on a very efficient setup may be higher than 150psi. As the load is applied, this terribly high backpressure increases and the motor, more literally than you think, is choked out. Superfarm pullers have seemed to address this issue VERY well and have increased exhaust flow and exhaust cam duration so that when they are faced with lugging so hard, this back pressure does not rise so dramatically. It is heat and not pressure that drives a turbo.

These engines are running a lowered static compression ratio. Somewhere around 14:1 for PS and SF and lower to near 13:1 on multicharger tractors. To be completely correct, Dr Alfred Buchi was running engines along these lines as early as 1909 (and to the tune of 71psi of boost). It is believed he could have done much more, but the materials of the day were vastly inferior to what they had in even WW2. Material science is what will lead to many of the next great break throughs. I dont mean exotic metals either. Just that the steel and aluminum is cleaner, of more uniform grain composition, and greater tensile strength and toughness. Better designs will take better advantage of these superior designs and show up with superior performances on the track.



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