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IH 1700 w/ 404 engine & electronic ignition


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#1 boog

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Posted 24 May 2008 - 10:23 AM

WE have a '76 IH 1700 truck that we use as a nurse truck for the sprayer. Truck has a 404 engine with factory electronic ignition. This spring it wouldn't start so we had a mechanic work on it. He put on a new electronic module (on the firewall), new coil, coil wire, plugs, plug wires, rotor & distributor cap, fuel pump, & fuel filter. Plus changed out the old Holley 2 bbl carb (bad power valve that was NLA) to a Ford 2 bbl & removed the governor.

The truck ran good till last Tues when it died with my son. He thought it was out of gas, though the gas gauge showed all the tanks had gas, so he switched the tank valve to the backup tank and it started. When he told me I thought it was kind of strange as I had just filled the saddle tanks.

Wed I checked & the saddle tanks were full as was the back up tank (actually the seat tank). I headed to the field to spray, about 10 miles away, and it die going down the highway. I pulled off & it started right back up. Drove about 3 miles & it doed again. This time I had to crank it awhile to get it to start. Drove about 2 more miles & as I pulled into a local repair shop it started sputtering but never died.

I due a lot of businees with the guy that runs the shop( not the guy that worked on the truck) and asked him what he thought the problem was. I thought it was the fuel filter plugging but he thought it was the electronic control box on the firewall. So happens he owns an auto parts store next door so got a fuel filter but they didn't have the electronic box. Put the filtyer on & it started up.

Field was about 3 miles away but the thing died 1/4 mile from the field. The guy that had the repair shop had said if it died again to pur some water on the electronic box so I did. Truck started but then died & I couldn't get it to start so ended up having to pull it to & into the field.

The next day I tried to get ahold of the guy who originally did all the work but couldn't get ahold of him. Called the mechanic that works on our semis & he came out. By that time I had gottne a new electronic box and he installed that but the engine still wouldn't start. We ended up putting a new coil on it & new plugs but thing still wouldn't start, no spark to the plugs. . He finally found a wire that went from the box to the distributor that had gotten against the intake manifold & metal thru.

After repairing that we could get a weak spark to the plugs. He pulled the coil wire partially out of the distributor to see what kind of spark the coil was putting out. As I cranked the engine it dtarted so he stuck the coil wire back in the cap & the truck ran. I shut the truck off but it wouldn't restart. Pulled the coil wire back out & it would start.

The next morning I got a new cap & rotor & it did the same thing. The original mechanic had called back the night before & he came out. He couldn't figure it out. Talked to an old IH truck mechanic who said it might be the magnetic pickup in the distributor but all the ones he had been around either worked or didn't.

Went into the auto parts store yesterday to see about getting the magnetic pickup. They called their warehouse who in turn contacted all the places they do business with but couldn't find one anywhere in the US or Canada. Only way we could get one was to buy a new distributor. Either $165 or $240 depending upon which one we needed.

Does anybody know of a source for these magnetic pickups? I also was told that there is a conversion kit that will let you use a different pickup. The parts store man nor his warehouse know of anything like that & the guy that told our mechanic about it won't say where he got it or who makes it but will put it on if we bring the truck to him. Truck would have to be towed by a wrecker as we would have to go thru town & down a US hwy that is heavily patrolled to get to his place of business, refuse to come out & fix it. Anyone know what this guy is talking about?

This is beginning to get aggravating. So far we have spent almost $2,000 on a truck that won't bring much more than that in this area even though it only has about 55,000 actual miles (I bought the truck new).

TIA,
boog

IH tractors currently owned: '49 M, '53 stage 1 L-SM,  '53 stage 2 L-SM,  '54 SMTA, '66 806D w 2355 loader, co-own a '66 1206 with IHboog, store a '66 706 German for IHboog. IH / CIH equipmemt - '11 MX 275, '10 STX 435, '03 MX255, '12 7120 combine w/ 40' 2162 draper & 3208 ch,  '07 3310 sprayer,  '12 1250 16x30" planter, 34' 330 True Tandem , 18' 870 , 7x16" 720 on-land plow, 6x18" 720 in-furrow plow, , #60 4X16" Plow, #1300 3 pt 9' sickle bar mower


#2 retento

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Posted 24 May 2008 - 02:08 PM

boog, give these folks a call.... http://www.smithinte...ruckcenter.com/

These people carry a lot of Loadstar parts, they may still have what you are looking for a MV-404 or MV-446.

#3 superHTA

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Posted 24 May 2008 - 06:10 PM

The parts stores used to sell an emergency ingnition box that would help you limp in (I've got one at work, only used it once) The only time I ever used it was to get a Ford 330 in that had a bad pickup in the distributor........it bypasses that.........they don't run well on it but it will get you in.
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#4 Red_Man

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Posted 24 May 2008 - 07:22 PM

Byron, I went through something similar with one of my Chevy 427's year before last, it has factory electronic ignition, it would either start and run fine or wouldn't fire at all, we wound up just changing out the dist. for a re-manufactured dist. as the truck had 120K miles on it. It has started and run fine ever since then.

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#5 Delta Dirt

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Posted 24 May 2008 - 08:39 PM

see reply under Truck forum

Delta Dirt
Avon, Ms 38723

#6 boog

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Posted 24 May 2008 - 10:42 PM

see reply under Truck forum

Delta Dirt
Avon, Ms 38723


DD, I read your reply on the truck forum earlier and thanks for taking the time to reply. I should clarify that over 1/2 of what we have spent on the truck this spring has been in mechanics' labor. As I stated, I bought this truck new in '76 and though I haven't gone back and totaled all the repairs spent on it , excluding tires, I safely feel that it wouldn't total what has been spent this spring.

I realise, electrical problems can be somewhat difficult to find. I once spent two years trying to figure out why our 4020 D wouldn't start after being shutoff with the lights on. Finally stumbled across a wire on the solenoid that had a loose terminal. Replaced the terminal & it was fine ever since. Had two different JD dealers work on that one as well before I got lucky.


Wish we were planting. Last day we were dry enough to plant was 5/7. Only been a couple days we could even spray since then. Might get some planted tomorrow but rain supposedly coming in Monday, Tues, Thurs, & Fri :(

IH tractors currently owned: '49 M, '53 stage 1 L-SM,  '53 stage 2 L-SM,  '54 SMTA, '66 806D w 2355 loader, co-own a '66 1206 with IHboog, store a '66 706 German for IHboog. IH / CIH equipmemt - '11 MX 275, '10 STX 435, '03 MX255, '12 7120 combine w/ 40' 2162 draper & 3208 ch,  '07 3310 sprayer,  '12 1250 16x30" planter, 34' 330 True Tandem , 18' 870 , 7x16" 720 on-land plow, 6x18" 720 in-furrow plow, , #60 4X16" Plow, #1300 3 pt 9' sickle bar mower


#7 Delta Dirt

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Posted 25 May 2008 - 12:42 PM

Yep----can definitely be frustrating and expensive.

I had jumped to the conclusion that it had to be the pick up module in the distributor--------changed the whole distributor assembly out, but problem kept popping up. Of course, you get all sorts of "free advice" thrown up in the mix-----that just further confuses the issue, plus costs good $$$$ to try.

And in the end--------I only needed a short piece of 14---16 gauge wire. Man----did I feel good when I finally discovered where the real problem was. Sorta cussed myself and laughed at myself all at the same time. :huh: :lol:

But do at least know----I've got a good ignition system for now, plus spares that I checked by inserting them back in the system to prove how stupid I had been in replacing them to start with. Never would have dreamed that the wire was broken on the inside of insulation by looking at the outside of the wire----just lucky to have pulled on it a little as I was moving the old wiring out of the way. And found several hundred dollars worth of answers!!!! :blush: :o

Reckon there is a reason that good electricians utilize an ohm meter.

Good luck with the truck-----------and with the crop.

Delta Dirt
Avon, Ms 38723

#8 boog

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Posted 26 May 2008 - 09:20 PM

DD, I rans some checks on the truck this morning. Voltage at the coil is 11.5v. Is that close? I thought it would be somewhere around 13v.

I couldn't find any sign of a resistor anywhere in the wiring or on the firewall. The wiring harness to the coil has an area about 8-10" long that has been electrically tape (always has been this way as long as I can remember). Feeling the wire in this area it feels to be a metal strip instead of a wire. Would this be a resistor wire or is it a strip fuse? I know the old Loadstar 1600 I had before this truck had a strip fuse at the back of the engine as I had to replace it once. Howver, unlike the wire on the 1700, it was mounted in a large rubber fuse holder.

I started the truck several times today & it seemed to run fine. I have to bring it home tomorrow to fill with water so will see how long it runs.

Thanks,
boog

IH tractors currently owned: '49 M, '53 stage 1 L-SM,  '53 stage 2 L-SM,  '54 SMTA, '66 806D w 2355 loader, co-own a '66 1206 with IHboog, store a '66 706 German for IHboog. IH / CIH equipmemt - '11 MX 275, '10 STX 435, '03 MX255, '12 7120 combine w/ 40' 2162 draper & 3208 ch,  '07 3310 sprayer,  '12 1250 16x30" planter, 34' 330 True Tandem , 18' 870 , 7x16" 720 on-land plow, 6x18" 720 in-furrow plow, , #60 4X16" Plow, #1300 3 pt 9' sickle bar mower


#9 Delta Dirt

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Posted 26 May 2008 - 11:32 PM

Boog---

Don't know about the taped strip (?????). I would have thought you would have read in the 12.8---14 volt range-----but, could be you are losing a little voltage somewhere through a dirty connection???? If its cranking OK------I would think that's plenty of voltage. You might want to check voltage at the battery for a comparison and see if you have a significant loss.

Some coils are designed to take the full battery voltage------while Ford and presumably Chrysler utilized the in-line resistor to step the voltage down to 7--9 volts while running (while they crank on the full voltage----then the resistor heats up and reduces voltage for the run cycle). Running full battery voltage to a coil designed to run on the lower voltage will overheat the coil--------and cause the coil to default on you.

Could be-----when the coil was replaced, the wrong coil was installed.

If it quits again (which it most likely will----seems like that is a given)--------imediately feel of the coil to see if its unusually hot. Try to check voltage imediately----hopefully you can isolate the problem while its dead. Also-----check the voltage at the coil while the engine is running to see if it is dropping down in the 7---9 volt range.

You could always try a jumper wire (with the in line Chrysler resistor hooked in) from the hot post on the battery across to the ignition post on the coil-------and just disconnect the current ignition wire. If that solves your problem-----then run the wire back through your ignition switch.

I am not familiar with what system IH was using with their electronic ignition. But-----I would think most any NAPA parts man could tell you (would not bet on Auto Zone, etc.). Anyway-----find out what other manufacturer uses it and get a service manual so that you can familiarize yourself with that specific system. If it happens to be Ford----I can forward you copies out of my Haynes service manual. I had an old Haynes manual left over from my old '84 Bronco (that I used to have)----ended up being the same system, so I was somewhat familiar with it.

Also----as I think back to the old Bronco days-----make sure the ignition wire connection is clean and secure at the coil post. I had similar problems with the old Bronco occasionally----where the snap on ignition wire connector to the coil post would not be making a good connection. Same symptoms.

e-mail address: dltadirt@tecinfo.net
phone: 662 335-5213

Sorry I don't have more answers-----but its got to be something simple.

Delta Dirt
Avon, Ms 38723

#10 rightsaidfred

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 02:31 PM

I have a '76 IH with the 404 and I had the exact same symptoms. It would work for a while, then quit. Let it set a spell, and off you go again.

I have a Motor manual for that year truck, and there is a diagnostic procedure for the Prestolite electronic ignition, and you can pinpoint the problem pretty quickly.

Anyway, it was the magnetic pickup in the distributor, and I got the same story from the parts houses: not available separately, but we'll sell the whole distributor for $$$, so I ordered the electronic replacement kit made by Pertronix. It was something like $65. Kit #1484A.



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